Controlling Chaos in the Home (Live Sturdy #3)

Ever feel like you’re juggling too many balls, only to realize they’re actually flaming torches? You’re not alone; we all face the pandemonium of modern life, particularly in our homes and schools. In this episode, Davies Owens sits down with the insightful Keith McCurdy to share experiences and offer tangible strategies to those grappling with the chaos of daily life. Their conversation revolves around the false narrative that equates busyness with success, the overlooked value of stillness, and how this hustle culture impacts our mental well-being and the upbringing of our children.

McCurdy, with his remarkable expertise in counseling, delves into the art of setting ‘big rocks’—identifying and upholding our top life priorities to achieve serenity amidst the storm. We emphasize the profound effects of establishing structured routines for children, particularly on weekends, to teach them responsibility and respect for their own spaces. Schools are not exempt from this cultural shift; we discuss their vital role in fostering environments where students learn to take pride in their surroundings through accountability. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for parents and educators looking to cultivate order and accountability, ensuring the next generation thrives even when life feels like a whirlwind.


Biography: Keith McCurdy

Keith McCurdy has worked with families, children, parents, and individuals for over 30 years in the field of mental health, working with more than 15,000 individuals and families. He received his Master of Arts and Education Specialist degrees from James Madison University. He is currently the President and CEO of Total Life Counseling, Inc., and is licensed in the state of Virginia as a Licensed Professional Counselor and Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.


00:09 – Davies Owens (Host)
Who could use some more order and calmness in your busy day. Chaotic schedules and families in scramble mode seem to be more the norm these days, even with the best of intentions. And yet we’re called in our homes and schools to be people who live with balanced schedules and manageable routines for our children and ourselves. If McCarty is back with practical advice on how to better order our personal, school and family lives, join us for this episode of Base Camp Live.

00:36 – Tim Dernlan (Announcement)
Mountains. We all face them as we seek to influence the next generation. Get equipped to conquer the challenges, some at the peak, and shape exceptionally thoughtful, compassionate and flourishing human beings. We call it ancient future education for raising the next generation. Welcome to Base Camp Live Now your host, Davies Owens.

00:57 – Davies Owens (Host)
Welcome to Base Camp Live Davies Owens, your host here. The journey continues here in our seventh plus year, so grateful for those of you who take the time each week to jump in and listen. We are trying to be faithful in connecting with you and partnering with you, and we address topics that range from parenting to classical education, to the crazy culture around us and how we parent well and teach well and raise up the next generation well together. And so thank you for those of you who share Base Camp Live episodes, the websites great place to go to search for old recordings and to forward those on to others. Thank you for those of you who leave five star reviews on the many podcast players the Spotify, the Apple podcast and all of that. We’re also on YouTube. Now we have audio. Only Video is in the works and we’re getting out on the road this year. Keep talking about that, but my schedule is exciting and it’s filling up quickly. I’m going to be on campuses all over the US. I only have a few days left in the spring and now we’re already looking to the fall, both my speaking and with Keith McCurdy doing the road show. So you can email me info at basecamplivecom and you check out the speaking page on the Base Camp Live website.

Over the years I have done a lot of talks around the topic that is shockingly complicated. Which is what is classical Christian education? I love having that question asked and answering that, as well as just helping schools think about partnerships between our home and our school and how to encourage parents and schools to work well together. It’s absolutely essential that we lock arms as we raise a generation into this modern world. And as well as talking about school culture, some of you may know I’m also part of the adjunct professor team that teaches with Gordon College’s master’s program in school leadership. I teach a class on institutional advancement, so I also think a lot about school culture and how our school’s culture impacts, or we’re impacted vice versa, by the culture outside our doors, and how we again do everything with excellence and raising up the next generation. So a lot of opportunities to connect, love to hear from you, see you. All of that is on the info at Base Camp Live Email, let me know or check out the website. This particular episode is brought to you by some amazing organizations America’s Christian Credit Union, classic Learning Test, gutenberg College, wilson Hill Academy and Gordon College. We really appreciate your partnership in sponsoring this episode of Base Camp Live.

Well, my guest today, keith McCurdy. Really, he ought to just be called a co-host because he shows up so often with such great wisdom. Keith is even busier than about anybody I know in terms of getting out on campuses almost 10 or so schools a month. I don’t know how he does it while he’s also running an impressive counseling practice, which is what he’s been doing for over 30 years. So he’s right there on the front line presidency of total life counseling and he has just got a great perspective and a great encouragement to so many of us. So we are in the midst of a Live Sturdy series. This third in the sequence they come out about once a month, is looking at this idea of just managing well through chaos and the impact of cause and effect. All that and more in this episode. So, without further ado, here’s my conversation with Keith McCurdy. Keith, excited to have you back on for another episode in the series we’re doing with you. I think this is segment three in this Live Sturdy series.

04:15 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
It is segment three and I’m glad to be back.

04:18 – Davies Owens (Host)
Well, you know, there’s a lot of ground we’re going to be carrying. We’ve talked about just sort of the state of the world today and the importance of baselining, and we’re going to jump on this topic of chaos which people are like. Oh well, that’ll be exciting. Let’s talk about the crazy world we’re in, but you know, it’s really. I mean, can you imagine going up to me and asking how you’re doing and they say I’m relaxed, I’m doing really well right now? I don’t think you would ever hear that. I think what you always hear I am so busy. And let me tell you about and it’s almost become, I think, a status symbol or I’m important because I have so much going on. Is that? Is that true? Is that kind of the world we’re in right now?

04:54 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, you know, it’s amazing to me. It’s so funny. I have parents that come in my office ever so often. They’ll make this comment. I had one this morning. She came in and she said you know what, can I just lay on your couch for the next 45 minutes? So, instead of us talking, I said it’s been busy, huh? She said oh yeah, there is. There is definitely a mindset that the busier we are and the busier our children are, that in some way that’s good or that’s healthy. It’s amazing. I was this past weekend. I was in Texas and let a parenting retreat slash workshop all day on Saturday and one of the constant comments that were happening is just, you know how busy we are, how we’ve gotten out of order in life, how things are so chaotic, and a big part of what we talked about really is how can we change that? So yes, I see that in my office all the time. It’s the notion that you know, as a parent, really thinking am I intentionally directing life and my family, or is life dragging me around?

05:57 – Davies Owens (Host)
Yeah, I mean I suspect this is not just a problem of late. I mean I remember years ago as a sociology major reading Max Faber’s book the Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, which is this? Basically deeply woven into the Protestant mindset is this idea that you know, we ought to be diligent, hardworking, which we should be but I think it’s kind of coupled with sort of the American value for utilitarian efficiency. You know we worship speed and volume, so all these things are. This is not just, again, a smartphone problem per se. It’s been a longstanding part of our culture, I think.

06:34 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, I would agree. I think we can look at the technology piece and that absolutely has filled any gap that was left over. But we already had I mean in my world dealing with parents as an example that often have their kids involved in so many activities that when we talk about healthy family functioning, the constant comment back is gosh, I just don’t know when we have time for that. And so again, other things are pulling them rather than them being intentional about how life will look for their family.

07:05 – Davies Owens (Host)
And what is the root? I mean, what are you seeing is really the root issue of why we’re so busy. I mean I could imagine it’s everything from again, sort of really peeling the layers back. It’s actually we don’t want to be ashamed as a parent because our child was somehow missed out on something which really is about us kind of covering ourselves. I mean there’s all kinds of it’s complicated. It’s not just this veneer of we want our kids to have good experiences. I mean it’s really complicated deep below.

07:30 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, I’ll give you two things.

07:31 – Davies Owens (Host)
I see.

07:32 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
And I hear regularly from parents when we really get into, as an example, why are my kids so busy? If we’re going to just look at that one piece and the two that I hear most often, number one is exactly what you said I don’t want them to miss out. And when I dig into that, it’s you know, all the people we know have all their kids involved in these things and I think my child will miss out on some unbelievable process in life if we don’t invest in this for our children. But yet when I dig into that with the parents, they have a really hard time at exactly what their child really will miss out on.

And the other thing I hear are parents that really have bought into things we’ve talked about before the therapeutic mindset and a piece of that of always keeping my child happy, the idea that you know my child wants to do this and so why should I say no, it’s, you know it’s a healthy activity, you know per se, and so I don’t want them to be unhappy, unhappy with me or unhappy themselves. I mean, of course I’m going to say yes to this, but not really investigating. But is that activity and how it fits into your family really appropriate, really healthy, or does it cause other chaos? So I think those two my child’s going to miss out on, my child’s not going to be happy. I hear that a lot and it’s not that parents consciously think that, but when you ask them to defend it, they often come back to one of those things.

08:44 – Davies Owens (Host)
And I think third on the list. I was going to say FOMO is something that you hear. That term, fear of missing out I mean that is kind of a cultural angst right now, right, and that’s part of both of those, I think I would agree.

08:55 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, okay, yeah.

So you’re going to say in terms of Well, and I think a third thing we see that kind of plays into that as well is we’re also told things by culture, especially in today’s world of athletics. I’ve been heavily involved with athletics for years, coaching and I deal with athletes all over the US, and we’re told at a very young age that your child has to do all these travel, sports, has to have all this athletic activity to be a good athlete or to develop as a good human being, or this is how they learn work ethic. And while sports can, and extra curriculars can, give us a lot of those wonderful lessons, they don’t if we get our whole family out of balance, and so I think we’ve got to understand the effect it has.

09:40 – Davies Owens (Host)
And I think it’s again to your point it can be complicated. I mean, when you talk about in these general terms, when you’re talking about a parent and their child, and their child really is an amazing soccer player and has gotten all this affirmation, and so it’s like I don’t want to, you know, restrict them from this potential future they have, even though it’s probably like a.0001%, they’ll play at the pro level. At the same time, there are kids that you know that are in pro, that potentially would never have been there had they not started so early. So it seems like, I mean, it’s a legitimate concern.

10:13 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Well, it is interesting. I deal with a lot of collegiate athletes, a lot of coaches, and something I hear again and again and again from coaches is travel athletes are not the best athletes. And I lean in and I say what do you mean by that? And I said well, actually great athletes may end up playing travel because it’s available today, but travel athletics do not make great athletes necessarily. They’re hard to coach, they play for the wrong reasons. They haven’t learned to earn a spot.

You know, I was at a large conference this summer, speaking to about 1500 teenagers, and I asked a question. I said how many of you play travel athletics? And I was actually shocked because I would say virtually all of them raised their hands. It was a powerhouse part of the country for athletics and I said to the large group I said well, if you’re not getting playing time, what do you do? And from one side of this big auditorium I was in, this kid yells out change teams and the whole crowd bursts out clapping, and so that just goes to the whole notion of we get into this pay to play. You know what I hear from coaches, just as an example is the best athletes play for one program, play for their middle school, play for the high school, learn work ethic, learn team concept and have an off season to train. Now they may end up playing travel at some point, but it’s not the travel that makes them the athlete.

11:31 – Grant Wiley (Announcement)
So that’s again.

11:31 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
That’s just part of the messaging we don’t understand in culture.

11:36 – Davies Owens (Host)
Yeah, that sounds like a whole other podcast we should tackle. But maybe bring it back up a level. So we’re kind of, the general direction we’re headed in here is we again no one’s gonna debate. We’re not in moments of not only living in chaos but even celebrating it and reveling in how busy we are, which is again having downstream all kinds of impact. So talk more about that.

11:58 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, I think that when we are very busy, what it does is it gets back to something already mentioned it makes it hard for us to intentionally pursue life. So if we’re looking at an order of life as an example I often talk to folks, I had this conversation twice already today the idea of you know, in what order of priority are you living, and it’s that notion of are we really putting our relationship with God, our marriage, our family, our kids and then the world in that order or are we running, unfortunately, as most families share with me, the world and all of our obligations? Then it’s all our kids’ activities. We’re running around. Then it’s family.

You know, we realize we haven’t had family dinner together and then we think about the marriage and realize, oh my gosh, we haven’t done anything together in our marriage. And usually when we do, it’s only when we’re worn out and tired. So we’re giving each other our worst and then we pray a lot so God will help us. You know we have it backwards and understanding that we can’t, and that’s another. I think that’s a whole another podcast as well, explaining all that order. But we can’t be intentional about that when we’re too busy and we’re called to be intentional about those healthy things, to build the healthy foundation in our family, and so I think often when families come to me, their comment is okay, where do we begin?

13:15 – Davies Owens (Host)
Exactly. Well, why don’t we take a break and we’ll come back? And you know, as you’re describing that, I was thinking about the old Stephen Covey. Was it the habits of highly effective people?

I remember him on the stage with a giant bucket and all these rocks and put the big rocks in first. So it’s actually visually an interesting experiment to do. If you put in all the little rocks, the big ones won’t fit in very well at the top, but you put the big rocks in and the little ones fit around it. So it’s how do you order your life? Well, let’s come back and let’s talk about that. How do we get some order out of the chaos?

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As schools and families, we engage with businesses every day and unfortunately, many of them are increasingly embracing more progressive ideologies and practices. That’s why Basecamp Live. We’re proud to partner with America’s Christian Credit Union, a banking institution that only serves and invest in kingdom causes. So, whether you’re managing a school, a home, a small business, accu can meet your banking needs while upholding biblical values. Find out why tens of thousands of families and ministries across the country, including Basecamp Live, have chosen to bank with ACCU by going today to americacristiancucom. So, keith, I can’t imagine there’s someone listening that says there is no chaos around me. I’m in utter and complete calmness and I didn’t really need this podcast. I think most people are like oh Keith, throw me a lifeline. So what do we do? How do we put in order if there’s chaos around this?

15:15 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, I think that’s the question you know so many times. It’s funny. I’ve dealt with this twice this morning with parents that I’ve just recently started working with, and we’ve had similar conversations, and they always want to say, all right, how do we fix this problem with this child? How do we fix this problem? I say, well, wait a minute, we’re not going to be able to fix anything, or if we fix it, it will only be temporary if we don’t affect the chaos or the busyness or the out of out of orderness in your life. So, because chaos breeds dysfunction, and so we need to realize that first, we need to address that piece. A lot of the dysfunction that’s there drives up on its own. Then what’s left we will deal with. So the question is, as both sets of parents today two different times asked me so where do we start?

And the starting point is understanding the basic learning tool of childhood, which is calls and effect. And the first piece of calls and effect is the idea of putting life in order, and it’s amazing what happens. It calls and effect is simply this we have to take care of A before we move to B. So what does that look like? Well, we referenced this. In our previous podcast we talked about baselining. Applying calls and effect initially in your home is beginning to take a piece of life not everything at once and put it in order. So if you’re a grammar school student or a grammar school parent, let me give you this is a great model. Start only with either Saturday mornings or after school. Let me walk you through both. This is the way you put order back in using calls and effect. Your child comes home from school. You say, hey, great, I’ve got a snack for you, Please have a good snack. And then I don’t care when you do this, but nothing else happens until your homework’s taken care of.

Now here’s the here’s the issue. When we begin putting things in order, we immediately confront some huge obstacles in parenting. Number one do we really mean what we say? Because it’s amazing to me how many times we say things, especially when frustrated, that we don’t mean. You’re grounded to your 30, which means they live with you when they’re 30. You know that’s. We don’t want that. It’s amazing to me. I’ve already heard I always laugh and it’s kind of a sad laugh. I’ve heard three or four times already parents that threaten to remove Christmas from their children. They’ve just shared that with me because we just got through Christmas, or should I say they’ve confessed it to me. These are examples of us getting fired up, threatening our children, saying you know you’re going to lose this. So we’ve done a lot to undermine our word. This is how we reestablish it. But here’s the key If we say nothing else moves until your homework is taken care of, then there are no sacred cows.

What do I mean? It doesn’t matter how much you paid for soccer, it doesn’t matter what, what, what you’ve invested for dance, it doesn’t matter if Billy has a birthday skate party that night, he’ll have another one next year. If we’re going to make the claim to our child, nothing moves until you take care of this, then we have to mean that, other than feeding them and them going to bed, the reality is nothing moves, because we’ve got to decide early in life that we’re going to win this battle, because it sets the stage for so many others in life. So there is no exception. So if they miss soccer, if they miss another event and we can call the coach and let them know why. It’s amazing to me. I say this to parents.

I said this to this group this weekend. I said, you know, and I had some teachers in the crowd and so I said is it a problem if your child refuses to do homework for a night? Everybody said no. I said, what about a week? I have. The room got nervous. I said, what about a month? And everybody looked quiet and I said all right, how many teachers in this group? But I had about a dozen teachers in the group. I said all right, teachers, you answer this question for me If a grammar school parent comes to you and says look, I’m really sorry, johnny has not done his homework all month and I know that here’s what we’re battling at home.

He’s on bread and water, not necessarily, but he has nothing else. We are going to win this battle so that it’s not an issue in the future. Whatever you have to hold him accountable to here at school for not turning in work, please do it. I asked the teachers in the crowd. I said would any of you have a problem with that? Every teacher and I’ve asked hundreds of teachers they’ve said absolutely not, because we know the long-term benefit of that will create many better habits down the road. If that’s what has to happen right now, if the child’s not doing homework for the right reason, we’re holding them accountable. Then it’s fine. We have to say that go ahead.

19:37 – Davies Owens (Host)
I think this is as you’re saying, that again there’s probably a lot of folks thinking, okay, that makes total sense. I agree with it, especially on the parent front. But, as so often as the case, parenting is challenging, it’s hard, it demands more of us. The easier path. I think that again, kind of the elephant in the room is like I know that’s probably better, but man, that’s going to take me kind of having to manage this season worth going through and I’ve got to keep an eye on things. I’ve got to keep course correcting and I’m tired right now. I don’t really want to do that. Let me just give in. I mean, it just seems like that’s always what that’s what we’re battling.

20:10 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
We’re battling that and we’re battling the fact that when we begin to do that, the child’s probably going to throw a tantrum and not be happy for a period of time. I asked a mom recently if I could share this at some point, if I needed to, as an example on a podcast or something, as she did, she said, yes, she has nine kids. She has nine children, let’s say. They’re in chaos on their best day, and the one thing that we started with in her family was putting their afterschool in order. And within one month she said it’s amazing how much peace we now have. We still have fits with some different things. If a mom with nine kids can do this, then most of us don’t have an excuse.

This was putting the afternoon in order beginning to instill calls and effect and the way it looked. They come home, they have snacks. Nothing moves in their lives until homework is taken care of. Understand homework taken care of is, it’s done, it’s checked, it’s corrected, it’s packed back up, put in the book bag, buy the door in the van for the next morning and they’ve already packed their lunch. It’s amazing how we’ve just simplified morning. So now, when that’s finished, we say to the child again calls and effect. You don’t go to B, you get through A and sometimes B is still not what you want. So next step is great, great job on your homework. Wonderful, you packed that lunch, wonderful. Now nothing else still happens that you would like. Until you take care of your obligations in the home, you know, whatever their day, their responsibilities are and that’s another podcast as well, talking about what should those look like. But the idea is children should be moving constantly from consumer to contributor in the home.

21:50 – Davies Owens (Host)
Again, it’s not just the parents will trying to be transposed or pressed down on the child. It’s a child having to own and navigate both the difficulty and the joy of kind of completion, I guess at the end Right, if you can say it that way.

22:03 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Yeah, it’s the parent operating an order and creating order in the life of the child. And what that happens. When that occurs, when we create order in the life of a child, it begins to work on a few things, things that we see so many in Gen Z and Millennial struggling with the ability to self-regulate, the ability to have impulse control, the ability to have patience, the ability to demonstrate work ethic Work ethic. In a sense, it is simply this I’m able to do and complete a good job at something, often when I don’t want to or it’s difficult, and we don’t have that in a lot of folks today. And this begins. This is kind of the foundational step in that that I’m gonna hold you accountable to completing this before you then move on to the third stage, which is now you have freedom within the things that we have redeemed or healthy and appropriate. And so the simple order we begin to put in of cause and effect.

I say when you come in. I mean, if a man doesn’t work, he shouldn’t eat. It’s the simple connection of take care of the basic obligations of your life first and right now. For grammar school students, it’s taking care of school, taking care of being a basic contributor in your family, then you have freedom, and privilege. And it’s amazing because when we begin to do that, it forces us to say no to some things because we’re conquering a bigger battle. At first we mean what we say and we’re holding our child to basic skills that develop the tools to better navigate life as they’re older and it begins to calm life, and it’s often with parents. They often come back and say to me you know what we realized? We can’t have all these kids playing, travel, sports at the same time. And I say how’d you realize that? Because we can’t accomplish these things that are necessary for their development and do that, that’s okay. Great. By putting it in order, it helps us make better decisions. And then we’re also growing the fact that our word means something.

23:59 – Davies Owens (Host)
That’s profound, keith. Well, let’s take another break and come back and we’ll kind of wrap things up both with just some. Get some additional practical advice for the families and for those in schools and leading in schools how do we make cause and effect really practical and a daily moment that we’re living in? We’ll be right back and continue the conversation.

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25:39 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Well, let me hit on two for the home. One I mentioned. Let me tighten it up here. One is it only decides you’re gonna tackle one piece of this at a time, just one at a time until you do it really well, either tackle during the week, after school, and it’s a simple protocol of you know, come in and have a snack, but then you take care of your homework and then you take care of some contributions around the home before these other things are happening. Now, if your child was involved, let’s say, in school athletics where they practice after school, something like that, fine, it’s. Once they get home, you put this order in place.

The other option is this for some parents they look at their week and they think, oh my gosh, we can’t start there. Okay, start on Saturday, cause we’re teaching the process, and the way you start on Saturday is we get up Saturday morning and once we have breakfast, we now operate this. We all have obligations to the home. There may be some homework that still needs to be done and we all have some obligations around the home we’re taking care of. All of that has to occur before we then have freedom. I also tell parents you know as crazy as life is right now. Have your child clean the room on the weekend, don’t worry about it during the week. Right now, it’s a starting point and it’s amazing what happens when parents hold children accountable to hey, saturday morning, once we have breakfast, nothing moves until your room is clean. It’s dusted, it’s vacuumed, clean clothes are where they belong, dirty clothes are in process. When that is instituted, parents start saying to me wow, they just keep the room a hair cleaner during the week. That’s right, yeah. And so then I shift and I think, gosh, what’s an application for this for schools? And I’ll give you one that I’ve recommended to many folks.

I actually had a head of school. I’ve had a couple of comments that we say I have saved them money on their custodian services. One I thought was really funny. I asked if I got a kickback and he said heck, no. But think about lunchtime. What a wonderful way to put calls in effect in lunch, which is when the students come in and have lunch. Have them clean the lunchroom. Now that sounds to some parents horrible, but here’s what’s happened. To head to school that I know, do that Every one of them says. It’s amazing how the lunchroom has actually kept cleaner during lunch Because the children are held accountable for what they have created. They’re held accountable that they don’t move on to other things until they’ve taken care of that mess as well.

27:53 – Davies Owens (Host)
Just to footnote that I think it’s been interesting in a lot of house programs in the upper school. We’ve encouraged and we did this at Ambrose when we were there, but the idea was you actually because the houses were competing on point systems, not only in athletics, but we divided the building up into six quadrants and so all the students were in charge of managing both their bank of lockers and their areas of the school. And it was amazing. I think I got my the glass and my office windows cleaned, like you know, three times a week is pretty awesome, but you know they’re going to think twice before they put their hand on the glass because they own that space. It’s now part of their routine.

28:29 – Keith McCurdy (Guest)
Well, and that’s the other thing that happens when we put calls and effect in. A key part of calls and effect is how we manage responsibilities, which also gets parent. Then another conversation for later of giving children responsibilities and understanding that that’s a basic learning tool of life. When we do that we’re actually onboarding children to ownership that God calls us to of His creation, and the learning lessons that now become available in how they take on that ownership and how we both set expectations and hold them accountable for that ownership are unbelievable.

You know, parents tell me so many times, you know we just don’t have the resources or we’re not sure the ways to connect all these lessons in life. And I argue actually it’s very simple. It’s obligator children to have ownership, and knowing how to do that and onboarding them to that in the process of setting those expectations and clarifying accountability and holding our word, that is what impresses so much truth in the lives of our children. And so a simple way for parents again to begin is to think about hey, let me tackle after school or let me tackle Saturday mornings and let me make my word matter, Let me hold my child accountable for an order of life, and that’s the beginning part.

29:45 – Davies Owens (Host)
Sounds great. Keith, thanks so much. There’s a lot here and I love the practical tips. And just again, if we could get Saturday morning figured out, maybe the rest of the week will start falling into place, and just the freedom to experience life without chaos Sounds great, I’m sure, everybody listening. So, keith, thanks as always for your insights and wisdom, and we’ve got quite a number in this series of the kind of live sturdy topics that we’re going to be tackling in future weeks. Thanks everybody for listening and Keith, thanks for being here.

30:10 – Grant Wiley (Announcement)
I want to thank America’s Christian Credit Union, Gutenberg College and the classic learning tests for supporting Basecamp Live. If you haven’t yet, please go onto your podcast provider and give us a rating and let us know what you think of the podcast. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at info at Basecamp Live and we’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you.